That should be Guiliani’s platform slogan. What an incompetent moron. If you really and truly believe that the attack on 9/11 had nothing to do with out involvement in the middle east, then you are seriously brain dead.
Osama attacked us to prove a point; stay the fuck out of our back yard. Stop taking advantage of our people, and stop trying to hijack our resources (see oil for more info). (And yes, I know that he also attacked us because he is an evil fucking terrorist; but remember, it is his family that Bush rescued after 9/11… and they are the ones having a good old time up in Saudi Arabia right now; not to mention them pretty much enabling Al Qaeda, but anyway…)
Additionally, I thought that true republicans were supposed to have a strong foreign policy standard that focused on diplomacy, trade, and ending wars; not nation building, occupation, and what ever the fuck else is going on over in Iraq right now. Seems these boys have some ’splaning to do, Lucy. I mean, that is one of the reasons all the right wingers throw that whole “glad a republican was in office” bullshit after 9/11; because Nixon was brought in to end a war, and Reagan did his part to end shit that was stirred up too. In fact, I thought that republicans were supposed to END wars, not perpetuate, lie, and fund them. What gives? But back to Guiliani, the town idiot.
I think that this is one of the most hilariously retarded things I have heard from any of the republicans:
That’s really an extraordinary statement. That’s really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of Sept. 11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don’t think I have ever heard that before and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11. I would ask the congressman withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn’t really mean that.
LOL! Seriously? You lived through it?? We all did! (Well, except those that died, Mr Guiliani, but good for you for living). Someone is a few cards short of a deck (he seems to have the jokers and nothing else). And I love that he calls what Ron Paul said (aka, the actual fact-based 100% truth) absurd:
They attacked us because we’ve been over there. We’ve been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We’ve been in the Middle East [for years]. I think (Ronald) Reagan was right. We don’t understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics. Right now, we’re building an embassy in Iraq that is bigger than the Vatican. We’re building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting.
But you know what, Mr. Guiliani, keep this up; you are just proving to us more and more each day that the majority of the representatives for the republican party are so out of touch with reality, that they cannot even fathom the truth, and think that the facts are absurd. I smell something absurd, big G; it’s you and your stupidity.
Each day, we get a little bit more of an idiot show from these fellas. Hell, I say, let them debate every week for the rest of the campaign; I am sure that there is some way crazier shit they have upstairs that they are just dying to share. After all, these are the people that want women that are raped to be forced to have the baby of their attackers. They are also in favor of torture, and are against health care. These seem like some pretty awesomely fucked up people, no?! (source) I’m going to go with, yes, Virginia, they are REALLY fucked up people.
So you are saying Bill Clinton caused 9/11? …Cool.
You are such a moron (your word). So we caused 9/11 by taking advantage of “Osama’s people?” Face it, Duane — these terrorists hate people like you even more than I do. And what’s with the political commentary? I thought you were busy pondering your needs (a full-time job if ever there was one). And I know you’re going to come back with the “you love me line.” Just saving you some time. Idiocy must be combated, not ignored.
Bugboy, WE caused it. As in, AMERICA. We need to stop raping the world, and realize that our actions have consequences. This goes beyond democrat and republican. And I am beginning to think you have some sort of real Clinton envy. Seriously.
atlmalcontent, I was going to just let your hateful comment die in moderation, but I thought it would be better served for you to show your bullying/demeaning nature here once again. You do a much better job of showing yourself as the villain than I could ever do.
Also, if you really think that a nation that was built on the backs of slaves over the graves of the natives doesn’t have any blood on its hands, and that they just hate us “because we are free”, then you are even more of a seriously delusional idiot than I previously thought. It is fact that we have taken advantage of the “Islamic people” for a long time. We have put our nose in the middle east to get what we want. We have taken what we wanted, and killed those that stood in the way. Those that we haven’t killed, we have put others in power to kill them. We have continually played our hand to make things better for us at any cost.
Point is, people that deny these facts about 9/11 (remember the commission? This is exactly what they found too) and Iraq are what I like to call the willfully ignorant; these are, again, facts. They are documented. IN SEVERAL PLACES. If it makes me a moron to read, learn, and maintain a level of education that is supported by documented facts, then perhaps your definition of moron should be altered to include progressive thinking, intelligent, and well informed. Fact is, I could write that paper is white with blue lines and three holes on the left, and you would come up with some way to prove me wrong or call me an idiot for pointing it out. That is what you do. I don’t expect any less. And, I appreciate you coming here over and over and proving that this is your nature; you reinforce your case far better than I ever could through retort or even insult.
I kind of think that deep down, you agree with me, and that makes you even madder than anything else. You hate to think that I would praise a republican for being correct, and point out how un-republican another person is, who hides behind the republican mask, and then call him on it. It tears you up inside that I am not the tried and true democrat you had convinced yourself to believe that I am, and instead, I actually do follow the facts. If it is a democrat who speaks the truth, then I am with them. Additionally, if a republican is right, then he is right. That is the case here. Guiliani is so pathetically wrong, it is just spine tingling to know that he really believes his lies. The fact is, I support truth. Say it to yourself as many times as you need to convince yourself that I am wrong, it won’t matter, because it will never actually negate the facts.
Finally, I would think that even you could recognize that Osama Bin Laden hates us because of what we represent and what we do as a country. He doesn’t give a shit about our wealth (isn’t he a billionaire?). He cares about his religion and the standards with which he wants for his people; which just happen to be the two main things we love to rape and take advantage of. I honestly thought you were of a level of intelligence that you understood these concepts of globalization, and you truly saw our impact on the globe, but again, it appears that I am sadly mistaken. It’s a shame, because I really thought you were more intelligent than that.
Additionally, I find it interesting that you find the need to police my blog. I can write about whatever I want. It’s my blog. I am more three dimensional than you want to admit, so I have the ability to think about and make commentary on different subjects. I am sure that is difficult to grasp since you are so cynical of everything about me and have truly convinced yourself that I am so one dimensional.
It’s actually kind of sad that you think that you will come here and one up me, when all you do is reinforce your bully nature, and show that you are so cynically driven, that you wouldn’t even agree with me if I said you were right. Such a shame too. So many wasted words to show us over and over again who you truly are.
Thanks for stopping by, again.
Certainly the Islamists are pissed off at our involvement in the region and our support of Israel. I will grant you that; however I might point out that the United States was not the only country involved in the middle east (the Soviet Union had a lot of meddling there, but where was the attack on Russia?).
Furthermore, I agree that this is a cultural problem, perhaps more a cultural problem than a political one. The fact of the matter is, the Islamic Fundamentalists would hate us regardless of our involvement. Our sticking our nose in the region merely gives them a convenient political excuse. Blame globalization if you will, but the objective of putting all the world under Islamic Law would eventually reach our borders anyway.
There is much that I like about Rep. Paul, but his foreign policy (or lack thereof) is not one of them. Isolationism stopped being viable for the U.S. not in 2001, but in 1941.
I must say once again, I agree with you Duane! Guiliani is an idiot as seems to be the protocol for running on the republican platform. I guess they have found their niche!!
pink,
There is no way we could know this, since we have pretty much always had our presence over there. I agree that Russia may have had some sort of presence, but we have always sought to gain more at more of a cost to the locals. Even now, we tell them that we are there to build democracy, but we won’t even give them the jobs to build their country; we give those jobs to contractors. It just seems to me, that the people that live there see these problems that we cause, and the greed that we continually portray, and when you get one like Bin Laden, who has the sadistic mentality to take it to the next level, and the ability to rally those angry locals, the problem gains a singular face; whereas the rest of the people hate us, and want us just to leave them alone. It is no secret that the people of Iraq want us to leave. I don’t think that this is a philosophy they came up with just recently. In fact, most of the region wants us to stay out of it; and while I agree, that a lack of foreign policy is dangerous, coming over there as the big bad ultimate power to “fix” things with our ways, is not the way to make things work.
We are different people with different ideals, by continually forcing our “ideals” on people that don’t want them is wrong. Additionally, and this is where I think that most of our problem comes from, and really stirs up those like Bin Laden, is that we portray ourselves as the moral and fiscal responsible force that should serve as the highest and best example of a society in the world; when we continue to cause problems worldwide, as well as within our own borders, which we refuse to change, fix, or even acknowledge in many cases. Top that off with our insatiable thirst for money, power, and resources, well, we do at least seem like a leech of a society that is more of the fat guy sitting at the feast, mouth full, barking orders at the peasants, who question why they are serving us, and what they really need us for in the first place.
I don’t think the situation is a simple one, but when you start ignoring the facts (as Guiliani is doing), and just start going off about this or that, especially when he isn’t educated in foreign policy (obviously), it is just scary, and frankly kind of humorous that he actually thinks he could be president, you know?
Talk about wasted words — your screed spent half the time addressing my “hateful” comment. When you use words like “moron” and “idiot”, don’t be surprised when people throw them back at you.
As far as policing your site, I’d rather avoid it, but when I see someone spreading such ignorance, I can’t help but address it.
Facts and propaganda are two different things, Duane. Just because you call them “facts” doesn’t make it so. Do you know anything about radical Islam? I’m sure we created that, too. Blame us all you want, but do so at your own peril. And are you even concerned about the treatment of homosexuals in the Middle East? Never heard you say a word about it, just bitch (and bitch, and bitch some more) about how tough you have it here. Not quite the same as being hung in the city square.
*cough* all or nothing argument *cough*
Again with that, eh? Again, to be expected, but I would like to expect more. But alas, nope.
Just because I make an argument that we are PARTLY to blame, you again, take it to the extreme that I think that the middle east was a party before we showed up, and everyone was sucking lollipops and eating cotton candy while being free and enjoying the garden of Eden like world they lived in. It really speaks to how completely devoid of comprehension you are, when you continually read something that I write about one portion of an issue, and because I didn’t address all 100 pieces of the minutia, you assume (and then use that as your argument that I am wrong), that I don’t realize that those many different pieces of minutia are definitely at play. I would expect that most people would be able to see that, but apparently, it escapes you time and time again.
Instead of reading what I write, and instantly saying “you so stupid”, why don’t you instead take a second, and realize that I am speaking, in almost 100% of the issues I speak of, about that particular issue, and understand that I don’t “all or nothing” it; I realize that things are bigger than this. Just because I don’t give a complete rundown of the history of the world, and exclaim how Islam has done this, that, and that, it doesn’t mean that I don’t recognize it. I would hope that I wouldn’t have to waste my time doing that, considering that wasn’t the point of this issue (as this issue focused on our involvement, which wasn’t propaganda, but is actually well documented truth… we call it history), but for people that think in all or nothing terms, apparently, if you don’t spell out the entire alphabet, they believe that whatever you leave out, you truly believe doesn’t exist. I again wish that you could be beyond this, but again and again you prove that you aren’t. It’s a shame too, because you could actually argue the issue with me, instead of pointing out how “wrong” I am because I chose to focus on what was said as opposed to everything that was ever said. Instead we do this little dance that is nothing but a dog and pony show. I honestly would like to debate with you, because I do think that you are intelligent, and have interesting perspectives, but you never focus on the issue, and are so quick to point out I am wrong, because of your all or nothing nature. I wish it weren’t this way.
It is also interesting to me, that because I realize that things are bigger than this is the very reason I have the ability to truly understand the perspective that puts us with at least a little bit of the blame. I know about radical Islam. The fact is, some pretty fucked up people attacked us. But to deny that they did it without any sort of provocation from us is not ignorant, it is willfully stupid. It isn’t propaganda to point out the FACT that our involvement with them had a lot to do with 9/11. You are the one that assumed that I thought we created radical Islam, when instead, I believe that we just stirred it up. Sure, they may have attacked us without our provocation, but that isn’t what happened. We gave them more than one reason. We continue to give them reasons every day. Denying that because they existed before is silly and speculative. Continue to argue all or nothing if you want, altmalcontent, because again, you definitely paint a better, ignorant, picture of yourself than I can.
As for this,
Apparently, your all or nothing-ness has blinded you once again. I actually have written about this very issue before. When those two boys were brutally killed for being gay in the town square, I was appalled and did write about it. Just because I didn’t mention it here, doesn’t mean I turn a blind eye to it. I also don’t think that I have it “so tough” here, and in fact, I point out over and over again how insanely lucky I am, and how I feel completely selfish for being so lucky. Perhaps you should spend some time actually reading and understanding what I am saying, because it appears to me that you are missing a lot of it. Whether that is by choice or not, it matters not, it just is what it is, I guess.
And with regards to policing my site; this is MY blog. You can argue, you can comment, you can read it, you can not read it, I don’t care. But what you cannot do, is change what I write, or dictate what I will or will not say. This is my blog. I don’t need a police force. Thanks for applying, but you application has been denied. I find it hilarious that you love to spout how ignorant I am, when I have so many that agree wholeheartedly with me; many of them the ones that uncovered the facts I speak about and agree with.
Thanks for stopping by, again.
And when have I changed what you wrote, or dictated what you can say? Good old hysterical Duane.
I don’t agree entirely with candidate Paul’s framing of the issue because it comes a bit too close to a blaming the victim mentality. But the motives behind the attack did have a lot to do with our historical involvement in the Middle East; no credible analyst denies that.
To take one example within the establishment, the Pentagon released a study in 2004 that deconstructs the assertion that Islamic militants attack us because they “hate our freedom.â€
• Muslims do not “hate our freedom,†but rather, they hate our policies. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the longstanding, even increasing support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and the Gulf states.
• Thus when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy. Moreover, saying that “freedom is the future of the Middle East†is seen as patronizing, suggesting that Arabs are like the enslaved peoples of the old Communist World — but Muslims do not feel this way: they feel oppressed, but not enslaved.
• Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. U.S. actions appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim self determination.
• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah (the entire Muslim community) invaded and under attack — to broad public support.
• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist†groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.
• Finally, Muslims see Americans as strangely narcissistic — namely, that the war is all about us. As the Muslims see it, everything about the war is — for Americans — really no more than an extension of American domestic politics and its great game. This perception is of course necessarily heightened by election-year atmospherics, but nonetheless sustains their impression that when Americans talk to Muslims they are really just talking to themselves.
…
Americans believe that while the U.S. necessarily shapes foreign policies to support our national interests, those same interests are not necessarily in opposition to the interests of other nations and cultures. To the contrary, Americans are convinced that the U.S. is a benevolent ’superpower’ that elevates values emphasizing freedom and prosperity as at the core of its own national interest. Thus, for Americans, ‘U.S. values’ are in reality ‘world values’ — exemplified by the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the 1975 Helsinki Accords — so deep down we assume that everyone should naturally support our policies.
Yet the world of Islam — by overwhelming majorities at this time — sees things differently. Muslims see American policies as inimical to their values, American rhetoric about freedom and democracy as hypocritical, and American actions as deeply threatening.
Justin,
I couldn’t agree more. I never meant to suggest that it was the fault of Americans, especially those that died that day. Additionally, as you expertly illustrated, I do believe it has a lot to do with our involvement as a political and military force in the region. Thanks for your comment!
altmalcontent, LAST WORD! HA! Dude, you continually crack me up with your crack-pottery. Thanks for the laugh.
“Bugboy, WE caused it. As in, AMERICA. We need to stop raping the world, and realize that our actions have consequences. This goes beyond democrat and republican.”
The issue was bombing Iraq. Clinton did that throughout the 90s every time a scandal was brewing.
” And I am beginning to think you have some sort of real Clinton envy. Seriously.”
Liberals keep saying that to me b/c you guys just don’t do well when things are put in perspective. No one was complaining then. No one wants to blame Clinton, especially you. Why is that?
What’s interesting to me, Bugboy, is that you are all or nothing as well; if any blame goes to the republicans, you have to make sure the democrats get their share. Point is, we all had something to do with it, as a country. This has been going on for a long time, during and before Clinton even. We are all partly to blame. Now get off Clinton’s dick already!
I hear Clinton’s uncircumcised, Duane. That should float your boat. Not that you would ever say anything negative about him anyway. (P.S. Clinton passed “don’t ask, don’t tell” — executive order. He could’ve admitted gays in the military, but as usual he chose expediency over principle. And apologies in advance for all the big words … that’s so poopy of me.)
“Now get off Clinton’s dick already”
I will never get off Cliton’s dick, and you will never get off Bush’s dick. But the difference is I don’t blindly blame one side for all of our problems.
“If any blame goes to the republicans, you have to make sure the democrats get their share.”
Well, you must admit that’s fair and balanced.
Duane, I readily admit that our Policies in the Middle East have only exacerbated the animosity towards us; however, my point is that what matters more is that the Islamists see us as “inimical to their values,” to quote the Pentagon’s study that Justin mentioned. It’s a cultural animosity not just a political one (though, again, I agree that politics does play a role”
Furthermore, I, like you, am dismayed that we are not allowing them to re-build their own country. Our government, both domestically and abroad, has the unsettling tendency to say “We are the United States Government, we know what’s best, and we will do it for you because you obviously cannot. Oh, and in the meantime, let me just take a little something for myself, thank you very much.” Nonetheless, I have no nostalgia for Saddam (I am not saying you do), and I still consider 9/11 an act of war that cannot be ignored while we sit around and feel guilty for being attacked. While even we Republicans are beginning to question whether Iraq was the best response, The war against Islamic fundamentalists (I’ve always hated the phrase “War on Terror”) is not something we can just give up on because it’s hard.
Pink,
I definitely agree with you, only the point was, to identify that it was at least somewhat to do with our hand, as you pointed out. I was just trying to have a holistic representation of what could have accounted for the attack, and many like to disregard that we have some stake in it.
Honestly, I think that any religious group that goes to extremes is a threat, and Islamic extremists just happen to go the full nine, which is definitely terrifying. I suppose this is another argument AGAINST organized religion, eh?
And I fully agree that we shouldn’t “give up”, that is why I stand behind us finding a new strategy; one that will work. It is clear that what we are doing isn’t working, so the time to make some changes is now. And you are right, I have no nostalgia for Saddam, but I do recognize that we put him in power, and that even the people of Iraq would rather have him back than us. Those important to consider as well.
Thanks for your insight!
Bugboy,
Do you not see that the whole point of this post, was to praise a republican for being right, while showing what was wrong with those republicans that continue to spew lies?
I don’t blindly blame anyone for anything. The blame is where it needs to be. Don’t fault me for putting blame where it truly belongs; on those that are committing the crimes and spreading the lies. I have never once said that all democrats, or all republicans for that matter, are perfect nor flawed. You have assumed that, and ran with it. If you would focus on what I am saying, and stop looking for hidden meanings that you believe exist in my arguments, it would be easier to have a conversation about the points I am trying to make.
I am also being unfair to Ron Paul, the format of these debates prevents anyone from making anything other than superficial points in their alloted time. I bet if he had time to expound on his thoughts, he would give a better description of what has happened.
I believe the immediate historical context of 9/11 can be spotted to 1953. That was the year when the U.S. and British conspired to overthrow the popular and democratic leader of Iran, Mohammed Mossedegh, who was going to nationalize some of the oil profits flowing out to British petroleum. Kermit Roosevelt, nephew of FDR, and Norman Swartzhkoph, father of the famous general in Gulf War I hatched Operation Ajax.
This was consistent with Anglo-U.S. strategy to secure what the British called “a vital prize for any power interested in world influence or domination” and the U.S. called “a stupendous source of strategic power and one of the greatest material prices in world history”: oil. Reflecting, in part, on the coup, British Foreign Secretary Selwyn Loyd noted, “We must at all costs maintain control of this oil.” In 1953, the U.S. declared in NSC 5401 that “United States policy is to keep the sources of oil in the Middle East in American hands.
To accomplish this, policy planners recognized that “we have to devise techniques for bringing influence to bear upon other countries internal decisions.” Eisenhower’s advisors wrote to him after the coup, “… hitherto accepted norms of human conduct do not apply. … to survive, long standing American concepts of ‘fair play’ must be reconsidered. We must … learn to subvert, sabotage and destroy our enemies by more clever, more sophisticated and more effective methods than those used against us.â€
So, in come the coup plotters. Out goes Mossadegh. In comes the Shah, who brutalized Iran with U.S. support for several decades. In fact, Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted to give Iran nuclear technology in the 1970s under the Shah. The Shah’s police, Savak, was a brutal and deadly institution, funded and trained by the U.S. In 1979 the Ayatollah overthrew Mossadegh, taking the U.S. by surprise. Following that was an 8 year war between Iraq and Iran. The U.S. backed the butcher of Baghdad in that one, although they dealt arms to both sides to some degree, which no one really won but resulted in the deaths of a million or so Arabs and Persians. Hussein was a big ally of the U.S. then, who hoped would be their new Shah.
Shortly thereafter, Hussein misunderstood April Glaspie’s response about settling disputed oil fields, Hussein invaded Kuwait, and then came desert storm. The U.S. worried about al Ghawar and other Saudi fields and put some troops on the border to prevent a southern push from Iraq. This enraged many Muslims, including one radical militant named Osama bin Laden, who had just taken part in a rebellion to expel the Russians from Afghanistan (with U.S. and Pakistani backing.) Bin Laden and his fellow travelers, once called freedom fighters by the Reaganites, began plotting against the U.S., eventually culminating in 9/11.
You could tease out other threads as well, such as Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians or the Sabra and Shatila massacres in Lebanon, Clinton’s bombing of the al-Shifa factory in Sudan or the “genocidal” sanctions against Iraq following Gulf War I. But those are the general outlines have what has happened and why “they hate us”, much more important considerations than any cultural misunderstandings. It should go without saying that none of this excuses their violence and terrorism.
However, you never criticize a Dem.