That would be John McCain, as he is a true centrist. He has pissed off far more Republicans than Obama.

As for the cause of the current financial crisis, I’m curious how you will explain this and want to see your thoughts:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

OR…if the above link is too garbled try:

http://tinyurl.com/6lp5qu

“Ignorant does not equal stupid. Perhaps you should explore the definitions of those two very different words.”

Ah, so you were intending to parse the technical differences between the two words. Sigh…

“he has accomplished nothing?”

Nothing noteworthy insofar as presidential credentials are concerned.

“Should I even bother to ask if McCain has every changed his position on anything?”

-Bush Tax Cuts (he voted against them, is now for them)
-Offshore Drilling (against it when gas was $1.32 per gallon, for it when it got to $4.32).
-Immigration Reform
-may be more, those are the ones I remember.

But note: his changes are from center/left positions TO rightwing positions, so since he is an “R” (despite being a centrist) these changes are well-received by his party. Obama’s changes? His early supporters should feel betrayed by his sudden move to the center. This is why “D’s” can be so easily called flipfloppers (though everyone does it).

I’m not sure if you were intending to parse the technical differences between “ignorance” and “stupid”, but you said what you said.

Ignorant does not equal stupid. Perhaps you should explore the definitions of those two very different words.

Obama really has no significant track record of accomplishment as Presidential qualifications. McCain, Biden, and Palin all do.

So you are basically saying that from 1997-2004 as a state legislator, nor from 2004-now in the Senate, he has accomplished nothing? Um, you are really, really wrong on that one. Grasping at straws in a phrase that comes to mind with that “argument”.

As for Obama changing his position on issues, you may be correct about some of them, but not all of them has he changed his position (especially the Iraq pull out). I again, may not agree with everything Obama believes and represents, but again, based on his current positions, I believe he is a much better candidate for the majority of Americans, while McCain is not. Should I even bother to ask if McCain has every changed his position on anything? In the same vein, should I even bother to ask if are you a believer that someone who gains new evidence, or information on a subject, should just “stay the course”, or is it fair for them to alter their original position to accommodate new information? Doing the first is ignorant, and willfully so. Regardless if I agree with every change in decision, I agree with most of Obama’s current positions, and disagree with many (but not all) of McCain’s; which was the main point of this post.

I like to give back as a true act of charity of my own discretion, not a room full of Democrats who want to get re-elected, and allow problems to get worse.

Wow, you should really, really check the track record of Republicans, dude. They make you pay taxes too. They make promises, and massively underfund programs, and have consistently caused this economy to go into the toilet; while Democrats almost always come in to bail us out. Seriously messed up view on what is going on does even touch where you are getting this misplaced blame from. Or is Bush a Democrat in your eyes?

A totally selfish society will never be successful. You may believe that, but it doesn’t make it real. Check out a few other selfish societies from the past and see how well they are currently holding up; mainly Rome comes to mind…

And then said: “Nowhere in my entire post do I call anyone stupid. This is a prime example of hearing what you want to hear, and then using that as fact.”

I’m not sure if you were intending to parse the technical differences between “ignorance” and “stupid”, but you said what you said.

“each of them are making promises, but the proof is in the pudding”

Obama really has no significant track record of accomplishment as Presidential qualifications. McCain, Biden, and Palin all do.

“Evidence please”

I’ll make a list:

-campaign finance
-2nd Amendment/gun rights in DC
-Iraq withdrawal (staying longer)
-FISA reform
-Imposing the fairness doctrine on talk radio.
-Raising social security taxes
-offshore drilling
- Rescending Bush’s tax cuts.

“Again, if you don’t want to participate in our society; LEAVE. You have to give back. ”

I like to give back as a true act of charity of my own discretion, not a room full of Democrats who want to get re-elected, and allow problems to get worse. Though I believe in helping, I see no proof of that to be a necessary trait of a successful society. A totally selfish society can be successful. There is a difference between participation and coercion.

I think you are confusing “charity” with “fundamental trait” as expressed through government (that is, forced). Such coercion is itself a form of greed.

Again, if you don’t want to participate in our society; LEAVE. You have to give back. We all have to give back. If you don’t like that, go somewhere where that isn’t part of the rules. I just don’t understand why people are so afraid of giving money to help make it better for everyone?? Shit, Republicans make you pay taxes too; so why is it that Democrats get such shit for asking for the same goddamned money? I don’t get it.

Actually, that’s a trait of Marxism, a failed society.

Actually, it is a basic principle of all society, and it is the reason that our society exists today. All societies contain traits of Marxism, and I would argue that many of those traits are necessary to maintain some social structure without total chaos and collapse.

As for McCain supporters all being stupid

Nowhere in my entire post do I call anyone stupid. This is a prime example of hearing what you want to hear, and then using that as fact.

Obama is making a lot of empty promises that would no doubt run the economy into the ground

If you consider the state of the economy, and the history of Republicans in office since Reagan’s era, there is a STRONG argument that McCain is doing the exact same thing. Fact of the matter is, that each of them are making promises, but the proof is in the pudding; we have to see which one will actually do something about it. I believe that Obama’s plan has the heart of America more in mind, rather than just the upper crust.

His answer for every issue is a giveaway to the “right people”, meaning “class warfare”

Is this a fundamental Republican belief, that everyone that needs help is getting handouts, and therefore, doesn’t want to work or do anything but get more handouts? Because, while that may be the case for the minority, it is not the case for the whole. That is the same mentality as cutting off your hand to spite your finger; it is ill informed, and very rash. Again, making decisions without all of the information is dangerous.

Further, he has changed his position on every major issue after wrapping up the nomination, so I don’t even know how you can know for sure what you are even voting for. Yet you think Obama supporters are *not* stupid??? He has already screwed over the people who voted for him and they still adore him.

Evidence please.

but sad to see that you like the idea of a welfare state and dismiss hardworkers and high achievers as “stupid” for liking a guy who is opposed to (most) giveaways.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I don’t dismiss hardworkers. In fact, I applaud people that make it to the top. Bravo!! In fact, I hope that you have an incredibly lavish livestyle. BUT, you want to live in a society? You have to participate; which means paying your fair share. Same goes for those that will receive help to live. I swear, it really frustrates me that people are so anti-welfare, because it really shows how clueless they are about how quickly you yourself could be in need of assistance. I don’t believe in free handouts, I never said I did. I think that if you receive help, you have to earn it. I will say it again, I don’t believe in free handouts; and I don’t think that Obama does either.

I think that you have a problem with hearing something such as “government assistance”, and you interpret that as “blank check to welfare people”. That is wrong. I am definitely more conservative than you give me credit for, and I don’t think that Obama is so socialistic that he is just going to ride around throwing dollar bills out the window to poor people. There must be balance, and in order to achieve this balance, there has got to be some leveling; the rich can’t have everything. Perhaps they could all do as Richard Branson, and buy their own island, therefore eliminating the need to live in this society, but since they cannot, I think that in order for our society to survive, we ALL have to contribute to it. If you have more, you simply give more. That’s it.

I think you are confusing “charity” with “fundamental trait” as expressed through government (that is, forced). Such coercion is itself a form of greed.

And since when did helping the less fortunate of our society become Marxism? Not helping them is known simply as “greed”. Sad.

I hold on to some hope that with Change will come something new and better. Things have to get better. Because the past 8 years have made me sick! Just pure Sick!!!

I say we need to Pray for our Country my Brothers and Sisters for we are all in the same hand basket and when shit hits the fan it gets on us all. For real no matter who You pray to get down on your knees or however you do it now and ask The Universe, God or Goddess by any name you call them to send answers to problems our nation faces. Give Our next Leader the Strenght, Courage, and Power to make the changes that need to be made.

I’m worried the dollar bill has become too powerful. It’s worthless in all truth yet It still runs everything. And hear we are again hearing “Billions” and that scares the shit out of many of us Americans. Many of us are in fact Stupid. Some can’t even tell you how many Zero’s make up a Billion. And many of us who haven’t given up the hope will go vote knowing it really doesn’t matter cause the electorial college is all that counts cause they be the smart ones in the states, right? Yeah, We the People and all that… I’m gonna vote, because I hold on to hope and I’m gonna Pray. Change is Coming one way or the other…

Knowledge is Power. Communication is the Key. Thanks Duane. :hug: