A government is useful for setting the rules of the game, enforcing those rules, and coercing collective action where it is deemed necessary by the people but would not arise otherwise. This is why we have massive public subsidies for research across numerous industries, public education, public pensions, health care for the poor and elderly, etc. We can and do quibble on how much effort should be spent on any one area, but in many cases the answer is not going to be found in the Constitution. They left much of it vague and open to interpretation to account for changes in our society and civilization. To claim that the general welfare of the citizenry does not include health care - in this case narrowly confined to combating an infectious, deadly disease - , as you said above, just doesn’t pass a smell test.

The only thing I said was, “The reason China doesn’t and couldn’t immediately recall their debt is because they need our markets.” in response to someone else asking rhetorically why China doesn’t demand we pay all our debt back at once.

It wasn’t me.

No no no… We, the people, control the society. The government is merely an instrument we put in place to protect us.

In theory, you are correct. And in your second statement, you advocate for governmentally controlled and substantiated public health.

About Iraq, I concur. I think that reason is a good reason to develop a new plan of action; which includes leaving. These are similar, but not the same type, of thing. You must consider what it would have been like if we hadn’t gone there to solve part of a problem with regards to many of the issues related to globalization. To ignore that will prove disastrous, as you will make many more mistakes than if you considered what would have happened had we not been involved.

And what “job” are we getting done? Can you even define that? Because I haven’t seen a clear and concise reason yet as to why we are still there; especially when intelligence tells us that we are totally making things worse. Not to mention the intelligence that was declassified that said that what we decided to do would most certainly cause exactly what is happening; a shit storm in Iraq, Iran, and the middle east.

The government is what CONTROLS our society…

No no no… We, the people, control the society. The government is merely an instrument we put in place to protect us. I believe this is the fundamental difference between your and my political beliefs. Look at the amendments to the Constitution. They don’t tell the people what they can and cannot do, they tell the federal government what it can and cannot do. We’re in control (or at least we’re supposed to be), not the government.

And the whole, “we shouldn’t have gone there” is a totally MOOT point. Move on to what we need to do now that we have, and continue to go there.

By that logic, you need to stop using the argument that we should have never gone to Iraq as justification for pulling out instead of staying and getting the job done.

I simply don’t think it’s a responsibility of our government to do so. WE are the country. The government is not the country.

If OUR society does something that fucks up ANOTHER society, it is OUT responsibility to fix it. The government is what CONTROLS our society, and as such, should be involved with providing that help. And this goes beyond just “other Americans working in those countries”; because they aren’t the only ones affected.

I know that you are all about the “self centered” motivations for things, but this goes way beyond that, if I am truly interpreting what you are saying correctly. I really hope that you don’t think that it is at least in some small way, our responsibility to reach out to those we continually shit on. If you don’t, all I have to say, is one, thank God you don’t control the government, and two, please don’t ever run for office. The government is definitely responsible, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

And the whole, “we shouldn’t have gone there” is a totally MOOT point. Move on to what we need to do now that we have, and continue to go there.

What exactly does China need from us? They have their own manufacturing, they don’t respect US patents of intellectual property. Are you saying that the US would decide to stop trading with them? Outside of food stuffs, the US doesn’t even have the facilities to make basic items like t-shirts, toilet paper, and silverware. We even import chicken from China!

I’m briefly searched online, but could not find items that China actually has to import from the US, other than crappy Hollywood films. I would appreciate it if you could find me a good link on this.

On another note, Dave talks about “not interfering with the business of other countries”, as if the US is one to talk. Aren’t we the ones trying to get the WTO to force China, Sweden, and Russia to enforce US copyright laws?

Titus