I also find it interesting that you don’t find any difference between a fetus and a baby; since you called the fetus a baby. Hmm. I definitely don’t think they are the same, and so I will never be able to understand that fully.

And this is why the two camps will never, never, ever, ever see eye to eye. Even just reading that made me skip a breath, because it’s simply not what I believe.

I found this online, and of course you could confirm it or not, but it’s interesting at the very least, and a heartbreaking and breathtaking fact on its face.

“The CDC says 15.2% of abortions are performed during week 7, 20.9% during week 8, and 24.6% in weeks 9 through 10. This totals 60.7% of all abortions.”

By the 8th week the heart of the baby has been beating for a month, there are measurable brain waves, there is response to touch, there’s thumb-sucking, grasping with the hands, swimming with the arms in the amniotic fluid, distinct arms and legs and sexual organs.

I have personal, close friends who’ve lost babies to miscarriage at the 7 or 8 week mark. I can’t imagine telling them to get over losing a bunch of cells.

We won’t agree - and that’s fine - but I think it’s rather narrow minded to say that abortion is ONLY about “choice.”

I think we were each posting comments at the same time, so I missed your comments on my blog while posting here.

I’m glad to see that we agree on the third trimester thing. And keep in mind that some of what I wrote there was directed at someone else. Comments on blogs are not the easiest place for conversations like this.

I will say that I was wary about using the murder analogy here because so many pro-lifers have called doctors who perform abortions murderers. That really doesn’t help a dialogue like this one, and that was not my intent.

The question of when life begins is very tricky. And in a conversation like this, each side is going to pick a definition which makes their argument easier. In my latest comment my blog I’ve attempted to find an analogy which helps work through that question fairly, but I’m not sure how useful it is. Our conversation is ultimately stuck here, at this question of where life begins. You say that it’s around the end of the second trimester. I say it’s much, much earlier than that. Others will say at birth. I’m humble enough to say that if greater minds than mine have not solved this question then I probably don’t have a complete answer, either.

Thanks for hosting this civil exchange.

RB

You’re holding up choice as if it were the only and most important right a person can have. However, our founding fathers and other enlightenment thinkers found “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” along with the right to own property, as four very key natural rights. And those rights must all be respected.

You cannot live without choice. And if you were forced to, you probably wouldn’t want to. Imagine having no control over your own body because someone takes that control from you; that is not right, and we are supposedly a nation founded on the principles of doing what is right, and granting freedom to our citizens. Additionally, I don’t think choice is the MOST important right a person can have; but in this case, this choice is one that every woman SHOULD have, and be able to make for herself. I am a person that really looks for the good in society, and believe that we all deserve the right to exist equally, but the world doesn’t work that way, and so the things that we can have living in this country (choice being a big one), are at least a bare minimum to start with.

What good is liberty if one is not alive?

A fetus is not “alive”. Yes, it is a collection of living, adapting, growing cells, but they are cells that are developing in the womb of the woman carrying the fetus. The cells cannot survive without the woman, and therefore, are a part of the woman; until the time when they can be separated and life for that fetus can begin. This is what happens between the second and third trimester; and fortunately, 98% of abortions occur before that point. So, in essence, 98% of abortions are ridding the woman’s body of cells; but not a baby.

Additionally, it should be clear that murder and abortion are not the same thing; one kills a person, and one stops the growth of cells that will (if left alone and growth occurs naturally) become a life. A fetus is not a living, thriving being; while it may be the BEGINNING of life, it itself does not constitute a living person, because it cannot live on its own. It is no different than the cells in your body; you have millions of them, but without everything together growing, it is just a bunch of cells. Those cells cannot sustain life on their own; much like a growing fetus.

I have mentioned this on your blog, and would like to point it out here again, for the sake of argument: Almost all abortions occur in the first trimester, with some occurring in the second, and almost none occurring in the third. A fetus cannot live or function on its own any time before the third trimester (or very late in the second), and as such, is not a living separate being from the mother’s womb. I fully believe that any abortion in the third trimester, other than to save the life of the mother, should be strictly forbidden. I advocate the choice of having an abortion before the end of the second trimester (aligning with almost every law about abortion in this country), but none after that point.

You mentioned that you believed abortion (albeit at 38 weeks, which again, I do not agree with) was no different than killing a new born child, but again, I don’t understand why there isn’t a distinction between abortion and murder, because they are clearly different; as I said before, one kills a seperate living being, and one kills a collection of cells that cannot exist on their own. Also, please note that I never suggested that abortion should be free of regulation, because it most certainly should, and I believe that this may be what you are getting at (at least I hope you are) with your statements. Now that this is clear, perhaps my position will not be taken as one of murder. The choice to have an abortion should be available, but obviously with some regulatory control; because we do agree on one thing: there is a point when it is a baby, and no longer a fetus, and at that point, it does become murder… even in my eyes.

You’re holding up choice as if it were the only and most important right a person can have. However, our founding fathers and other enlightenment thinkers found “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” along with the right to own property, as four very key natural rights. And those rights must all be respected. What good is liberty if one is not alive?

This is why it is fair for dpb and Shelbinator to bring up the flimsy murder argument. Saying that we don’t need a law against murder is obviously stupid, but murders will always occur. Killing a rival was much easier in the days of duels when two men faced off at 20 paces. Bystanders were rarely killed and the deed could be handled in an orderly and fair fashion compared to the drive-by shootings of today’s world. Should we return to the days of legalized duels so some forms of murder can be carried out more cleanly? The right to choice is not absolute.

I know that with your public health background that legalized abortion is more appealing than back-alley abortions. However, your post prompted me to write my own which presents a view from the other side. Rather than try to say what’s on my mind here, feel free to check it out.

The sad truth is that the pro-life movement has generally failed to show any love or compassion in this debate, and I think that’s cost them any support they might get from those in the middle.

Unfortunately I think your position that Roe v Wade is about choice and not about actual abortions is about as defensible as Atty Gen Gonzalez saying that the Constitution does not recognize the right to Habeas Corpus. It’s convenient and sounds good to you but others see right through it. It’s easier for me to deal with those who come out in support of abortion than those who attempt to dodge the issue.

RB

Anyway, I also agree with joey. Whew!