I am escaping again this weekend, this time, I am off to visit some friends in Charlotte. Good times should be had.
I have been thinking about something for a few days, and I want to leave you to ponder and discuss this over the weekend; my friend deb sent me an article about a “Creationism Museum” that they are opening in Kentucky. And, in light of the recent “anti-evolution” school standards being overturned in Kansas (article), I thought it would pertinent for me to pose a question that I honestly and wholeheartedly want to understand.
Why do people that believe solely in creationism (i.e., that God created the world and all of the universe) have such a problem with evolution? (note that I did not say, “why don’t they believe in evolution”, I want to know why they have such a problem with it) Seriously. And I don’t want the typical, “people are blinded by religion” or the “people don’t want to challenge their beliefs with other ideas”; I already know that those answer the question. But to me, I just don’t understand how a museum, and laws preventing evolution being taught in school will make it any less true. With that being said, note that I am fine with people believing in whatever religion they want; I believe in one (some of it anyway), and I don’t see anything wrong with belief. I also don’t see anything wrong with NOT believing something, like religion, which is something based on faith anway.
But, with something like evolution, which we have millions of years of evidence for, I just believe it is sheer ignorance to ignore that, and then formulate your own methods of teaching children about the world around them (both are okay, if taught together). I have a problem with people forcing their religious beliefs on others (specifically when it comes to publicly funded schools and programs), and I totally believe that attempting to teach creationism or intelligent design in place of evolution is doing just that; forcing people to be taught one particular “religious theory” as to the creation and development of the world.
Now I know what you are thinking, but wait, duane, by teaching evolution, aren’t we doing that? The answer is no. Evolution is a scientific theory that is backed by MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of facts and evidence that only point to the one possibility that it did indeed happen. What I don’t see, is millions and millions of facts and evidence supporting religious explanations of the creation of the world, after all, isn’t the paramount principle of religion, faith?
I understand that people want their children to believe that God created the world, and that is the end of it, but doing so in a public school is wrong. Especially when you take away real scientific explanation (evolution), and replace it with religious propaganda. If you want to teach intelligent design and creationism, I am all for it, but either keep it at home/church, or call it what it is; religious opinion and a religious explanation of how YOU think the world was created.
What are your thoughts? Do you think evolution should be taught in school? As someone that holds a master’s degree and an undergrad degree in Anthropology, I honestly don’t understand how anyone can deny evolution, we literally have proven that we descended from the same ancestors as apes. We have proof. Irrefutable proof. So why is it so controversial? It is real, right? If I started going around saying that you shouldn’t eat at McDonalds because they use children in their chicken nuggets; just because I say it, does that make it true? I would need some evidence for the Health Department to go in, right? Well, that is similar to this. If you want to call religion science, I need some hard facts to show that it can actually be compared to science, because now, we are trying to compare stars and sheep. It just makes no sense to mask religion in science… and deny fact, does it?
What are your thoughts? Do you agree? Why, or why not? I’ll be back on Sunday to see what you had to say. Have a good weekend, kids!
Thanks for the fair question. I hope you find some good discussion. As background, I’m a well-educated person (I hold engineering and MBA degrees) who happens to believe in Creationism. The reason I don’t believe in evolution is a) after careful consideration and study I don’t think the numbers are or could ever be big enough for it to work and b) I think my the explanation of my religion is more plausible. Since I strongly belive in a real and active God, then reason B is sufficient enough for me, but I can understand why others just don’t get that. And if you don’t believe in a God like I do, then of course, evolution, as it stands today, is the best, logical answer we’ve come up with.
The fact that people believe that we evolved from apes which evolved from lower species which ultimately evolved from amoeba doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that a theory is being taught as a fact. And I know what you’re saying, there is a lot of evidence which can be seen as evidence of evolution. However, to claim that we have irrefutable proof of evolution, at this point in our scientific cycle, is overstating the claim. The fact is that we have not yet reproduced macro evolution. And we won’t be able to in your lifetime or mine. Calling the evidence which you’ve seen irrefutable is akin to me saying that the evidence of my God is irrefutable. Sure, we both believe it, and we both can make what we consider strong claims that it is true, but in the end, neither of us has enough evidence to really, honestly make that claim. That doesn’t mean that we won’t continue to hold our beliefs.
I find it academically dishonest to teach that evolution is fact. I’m not sure that I’m in favor of teaching any alternative, either. To be honest, I’m not sure why so much high school biology involves the origination of the species at all. There’s plenty of biology and physics to learn without concerning ourselves with either evolution or creation. As an outsider, it appears that evolutionists (what a strange term, but it’s consistant terminology) feel like there’s a need to evangelize the gospel of Darwin, and what a better place to do it than the schools. I know it sounds silly, yet that’s how we’re portrayed often.
I hope you have a great trip, and I’m looking forward to seeing what other people have to say.
Evolution contradicts creation as its depicted in the bible. As soon as you accept didn’t happen, it’s harder to believe the rest of the book.
Well, I have trouble with the creation story as written. So they say that Adam was created first, then Eve, from his rib, and they had two kids, Cain and Abel. Cain kills Abel and then goes off and GETS MARRIED. Um, so where did his wife come from? Obviously, whomever wrote that stuff failed to see the plot hole.
duane, I love how you ask a question and then tell people not to answer it with the answer you know/feel to be true. That cracks me up…
It is my opinion that people cling on to religion because of their fear of what will happen to their soul if God does not exist. Because of this, they turn their nose up to anything that challenges the foundation of their faith. Something like Evolution, which has far more scientific evidence in its support than Creation, is ultra-scary to religious people because as Andy says, once you discredit the first few lines of the Holy Scriptures, you’ve pretty much discredited every word that follows.
And Jake… oldest argument ever. It’s played out. Get a better argument.
Dave, my fear would be what would happen to my soul if God DOES exist. Straight to hell with me. Luckily, it’s not something I give a lot of thought to.
Duane, tell us about your trip to Charlotte. I used to live there and often spend weekends there so I’d be interested to hear what you have to say about the place.
Hehe… great point you heathen!
I know and respect many people who believe the Bible to be true who also happen to believe in evolution. I had one friend who is both a physicist and a theologian, and his viewpoint on this issue would be very interesting, but we have lost touch before I could hear a full theory from him on evolution and the Bible. I don’t think it’s a reasonable statement to say that creationists hold to the creation account because if they failed to believe it then the rest of their religion would logically fall apart.
First of all, I am no expert on this, but I am an educated person and I have an opinion which although is bias, is also somewhat objective. I might as well tell you that I do believe in creation. Surprise, surprise, right? That being said, I do not completely deny the idea of evolution, only I like the term adaptation better. I do not belive that we were ever apes or any other inferior organism, but I do not think it is crazy to say humans may not have always looked like we do now. I also want to make sure everyone remembers that it is called the Theory of Evolution. Key word: “theory”, meaning not fact. Yes I know there is all kinds of evidence, etc… but there is also scientific studies that disprove or at least question some of the ideas of evolution. And there is also a lot more scientific evidence for Creationism than people know. As for my stance on evolution and creationism being taught in school… well: I think evolution has to be taught, but it has to be taught as theory. I think Creationism should be mentioned as a possibility to how life began, but I do not think it should be taught in high school or anything lower than high school; at least not in a regular science class. I think an optional class that teaches many forms of religion would be nice for maybe seniors who are done with regular high school science courses, but I think that is better left for college. For those of you who discredit the Bible because you think there are “holes”, I am guessing you haven’t read much of it. Unfortunately I am not as much of an expert on the Bible as I would like to be, but I do know that it does not say that Adam and Eve were the only humans God created. I don’t know enough about evolution to descredit it completely, so if you don’t know much about the Bible, how can you say it is wrong? I also want to say that I feel bad for people who claim no religion, or don’t at least believe that there is some kind of life after death. Its very sad to me that people think that this is all there is. Even if what I belive is wrong, at least I have something to keep me being the best person I can be. I don’t see how athiests have any kind of motivation to be a good human being. Well since I probably just opened up a whole new can of worms(sorry for the cheesy metaphor) I want to know what you all(especially Duane) think about scientology and cabala.
recovering, true… I should have qualified my statement by saying “some people” rather than just “people.” My apologies… There are obviously religious people that don’t discount evolution, but those aren’t the people I believe duane was talking about.
Rightwinger — Care to qualify this statement with examples? You casually throw this out there, and I’d like to see a continuation of this topic.
Just to disclose, I am religiously agnostic, though spiritual, and I happen to believe in the theory of evolution, but also that a higher power (name your diety of choice, my belief is that they’re pretty much all one in the same) had a hand in fostering it in one direction or another.
Rightwinger — Care to qualify this statement with examples? You casually throw this out there, and I’d like to see a continuation of this topic.
Just to disclose, I am religiously agnostic, though spiritual, and I happen to believe in the theory of evolution, but also that a higher power (name your diety of choice, my belief is that they’re pretty much all one in the same) had a hand in fostering it in one direction or another.
Ack, sorry for the double post there… my ‘net connection is acting up this morning.
I just find it interesting that the argument against evolution is that it is a theory. I haven’t referred to it as anything but. But, religion is also a theory, albeit, a theory with very little evidence (if any concrete evidence even exists is debatable). But it is FACT that evolution has TONS of evidence; and yes, whether we want to admit it or not, we did evolve from apes. I can guarantee it. That doesn’t mean that you can’t believe in religion and what the bible says; they don’t have to contradict one another, and you don’t have to be all or nothing with your beliefs. And that is where I think there is a disconnect for deeply religious people; they mask their ignorance in their fear of questioning their beliefs, because they believe it is all or nothing, and that doesn’t have to be the case.
I for one am fine with religion being taught in school, as long as it is called religion, and is taught with every other religion that exists; as in, taught ABOUT, not taught TO. I don’t believe that religion should be taught as an opposing theory to science. Those two things are completely different, and should never be compared or used as evidence to support or refute one another. That is pretty much the reason I opened this topic, is because I don’t understand how the two are used in this way, currently. I feel like I am rambling… does everyone get what I am saying? Fucking Mondays….
dpb - thanks for clarifying. I think that one of the more sad things are those Christians (I cannot apologize for those of other faiths) who cannot handle honest debate about beliefs. Even worse are those who set up straw men to beat them down, which is very common with evolution amongst Evangelical Christians. I’m always questioning my beliefs and a forum like this is an example to reconsider exactly what is at the core of them. Whether we were created in 7 twent-four hour days or evolved from star-dust over gazillions of years does not change the core the gospel to which I hold. That is, sadly, not true for many.
duane - I’m afraid that it’s THAT tone - the one you just used, which gets so many creationists in a tither. Partly because of what I just posted - they can’t stand to question their beliefs, but also the fact that our beliefs are often belittled. To say that one can hold both a religious belief that, say, the world was created in seven days and a scientific belief that the world evolved over millions of years is to ask someone to hold two contradictory opinions. I have never understood this position. A creationist, like rightwinger or me, look at the same evidence and see a different scenario for how the world looks like it does.
And I’m not about to attempt to debunk evolution here in this forum - I didn’t think that was the question. The question was “Why do people that believe solely in creationism…have such a problem with evolution?” I hope I’ve provided some insight. If you really want to know the answer, though, you’ll first have to attempt to view the situation from another’s perspective and consider for a second that your beliefs (scientific understanding, whatever you want to call it) could be wrong. Take it from someone who’s done plenty of that, that’s a very difficult task.
Oh for fuck’s sake. When people throw out the “theory” BS, it’s just painfully obvious that they don’t understand what the word “theory” means within the scientific method. A scientific theory cannot be proved, it can only be disproved.
Amber - to some extent you are right. A theory can be disproved more easilly than it can be proven. However, my understanding of the scientific method (which I gained while essentially minoring in science and math) is that something only moved from being called a theory to being called a law after observation and repeatability, usually through experimentation. Like I said before, if we manage to create life in a lab, then I will be absolutely challenged regarding my beliefs, and I may change them at that time. However, to me, the most parsimonious answer, at this time, remains creation.
recovering, first of all, I didn’t mean to say it in a belittling manner; especially considering that I do hold some of the Christian beliefs; saying that someone is ignorant to something is not a belittling label, it is simply one that refers to them not knowing something (based on choice, or whatever). So, if what I said was seen as belittling, I apologize, because it wasn’t.
Second, my biggest problem with every argument against evolution by a creationist is encompassed in the following:
First of all, I do view it differently, remember, I stated that I too believe in some Christian beliefs, but not blindly, as I do believe in both Christianity and evolution(more in the evolution, but that is neither here nor there). But having a different perspective and choosing not to believe in the facts that support evolution is not going to change the fact that they do exist, and that they do prove certain elements of evolution. The reason that bothers me most, is because that very same statement cannot be made about religion and creationism; if people don’t believe in them, they can change, and they can go away. The facts that support evolution exist in bones, fossils, historical records, and scientific artifacts; these things will not stop existing because people don’t believe in them. I just don’t see that as a valid argument, yet here it is. My point is, is that because you see it as wrong, doesn’t mean it will be any less right; but religion cannot follow the same guidelines. If everyone stopped believing in it tomorrow, it would go away; but the bones will remain.
I also agree with you that this arguement is about teaching evolution, not whether or not is real. The problem, again, lies in the fact that religion should not be taught in schools because it is based MORE on opinion, and evolution should because it is based MORE on fact. That is simply what I am trying to say.
Additionally, I think that if we were to do what you suggest, which is create life through a repeatable experiment, we would end up debunking both religion and evolution. Both hinge on time, remember? Unless that would be the longest experiment ever!?!?
Duane - funny you should mention long-running experiments. I was just reading about some of the longest running experiments, but that’s another topic for another time.
I’m not about to call into question your beliefs, and I hope that I’ve demonstrated here that I know and respect many people who share your belief in Christianity and evolution. I also hope that you don’t think that I’ve come into this with my eyes closed. I use my moniker because of a series of life-changing experiences which caused me to question everything I believe, including our how we came into being. My point on which you quoted me above was that to understand a creationist’s reaction, then you have to imagine for a moment what it would be like if you were a creationist. You’ll never fully understand why a creationist responds to evolution the way he does any more than I’ll probably ever understand what it’s like to be gay, but if we really want to understand someone, then it’s a good idea to try to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes.
I understand your complaint that the creationist’s reaction is one-sided. But I think you’re selling creationists just a little short. Creationists know the fossil record exists, and they can make a case for each item found in it without relying on evolution. Again, I’m not going to attempt to scientifically prove creation here, but let’s just say that the commonalities which exist among the species lead some to believe in a common creator while it leads you to believe in a common source from which everything evolved. I know it’s hard to believe, but there are scientists out there (granted, they’re in the tiny minority) who will support this theory. I won’t grant that evolution is based MORE on fact, but I will agree that the vast majority of scientists believe it to be true and that more people in our country today believe in macro evolution than do the literal seven day creation account. Now this would be an intersting long running experiment - let’s erase everyone’s memories (except ours, since we’re running the experiment) and burn all the books and see how people explain the origins of the species…
Thanks again for the good topic and exchange. This has been a good diversion from an otherwise dull, work and house oriented day.
~RB
Muse… I apologize and regret that I do not have the time or resources at my disposal to provide you with specific examples of evidence that support the stories in the Bible. You may think I am just making that up, but I really don’t care, the evidence is there, it is just a lot less well known than evolutionary evidence. Maybe you should do your own research, since even if I did give you specifics, you probably wouldn’t believe me unless you saw or read it for yourself. I know this is probably going to be thrown back in my face, but anyways… one of the things Duane listed as evidence of evolution was historical records. Well, to me the Bible is a historical record. Ya ya I know there is all kinds of physical evidence supporting evolution, etc… Like I said before, I do not absolutely deny the possibility that humans have evolved or adapted over time, but I will never believe that humans came from apes. Duane, I apologize for turning this debate away from your original question, but I’ll say agian that I do not think that creation should be taught in a science class, but I agree with what rb said, that evolution should not necessarily be taught either in a regular high school science class.