I am feeling much better today; it is amazing what a little alcoholic excursion and some trivia can do for ya. More of that (the alcoholic excursions, that is) tonight, tomorrow, and Saturday… so, things are looking up! HA!
Anyway… The reason this post is titled the beginning of the end, is in regards to the ban that lawmakers voted on in South Dakota, which if signed by the governor, will outlaw most abortions in South Dakota. Things like this really scare the shit out of me, and should really strike fear in the hearts of all Americans:
After more than an hour of fierce and emotional debate, the senators rejected pleas to add exceptions for incest or rape or for the health of the pregnant woman and instead voted, 23 to 12, to outlaw all abortions, except those to save the woman’s life.
Now, I have a question here; are they nuts??? We are so worried about our freedoms and liberties that we are willing to wage war wherever we want, and do whatever it takes to secure our national security and safety, but we are unwilling to let women make a choice as to what to do with their own bodies?? I thought we were FOR freedom?!
What kind of fucked up double standard is that? Even if you don’t believe in abortion, which if you are a guy, I, AS A GUY, don’t think you have much ground to stand on… but anyway; you have to admit that there is a serious potential injustice that can send shock waves of oppression throughout the country that we so “dutifully” “protect”. I see this form of oppression to be the burka that we are enslaving American women with, and it is just plain wrong. Not to mention the severe ramifications that will follow. Yikes.
I am not going to debate what I think about abortion; you all know that I think that it is the woman’s right to choose what she does with her body. That, as I have said countless times before, is not an issue of abortion at all, it is an issue of freedom. This is an issue of choice and freedom; and this bill represents the dissidence of all that is “decent” and “sacred” in the “ideals” in which this country was founded; and the (apparently false) pretenses in which it is ran today. And frankly, I find it completely and utterly reprehensible, and totally hypocritical of our nation to even entertain the idea of banning abortion. And that doesn’t even consider the way that this bill specifically falls deaf on pleas to include circumstances of rape and incest??? WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!!!!??
It is the beginning of the end, I tell you. Here’s hoping this doesn’t happen (even though the fucking person that will be signing the bill, the governor, is against abortion, so it probably will. Oh yeah, and he is a man… typical.) Please, let these people grow up and respect the rights we “are entitled to” as Americans. I fear for this country. I fear for the women most.
When I heard about this article today, I was curious which blogger would be the first to pick up on it (well the first that I read at least). Congrats Duane, you win!
I find it interesting that on your last post about abortion at least one or two people questioned why Pro-Lifers made exceptions for rape and incest because if “abortion is murder as you state” then there should be no difference between any abortion regardless of circumstances. Well, here ya go… Pro-Lifers have heard your pleas and are doing as you asked by passing this legislation. To me, this strengthens the Pro-Lifers stance… the whole exception deal really weakened their argument if you ask me.
If that’s the case, then we shouldn’t listen to the male Pro-Choicers such as yourself, should we? I don’t understand why people want to dismiss the male perspective so freely? Why is it that because we can’t have kids we can have no say in this matter? In fact, how come in every legal situation, the male gets undermined by the woman. Men never get their fair shot at anything dealing with kids. Mom always wins… unless mom is a crack whore.
Serioiusly? A little overly dramatic isn’t it? This is one unique circumstance of which there is no comparable male-equivalent. If both men and women could get knocked up, would this still be an issue?
Feel free to delete this comment as I know most of your readers tends to not take to kindly to my point of view.
it’s always interesting to see folks who don’t beleive the child has rights until it’s expelled through a normal channel like the vagina or c-section…
heaven fobid the ‘incubation’ period isn’t over & the child isn’t wanted… poor thing is subject to chemical and/or physical evacuation from the womb… have any of you had a chance to study the procedure from a biological perspective?
i guess i don’t have the same views since i’ve never found myself with that decision or even being in the sphere of someone else’s influence while trying to decide…
i’ll probably get stoned for this… but i am firm believer that if a better decisions were made up front, then this ‘freedown of choice’ issue would be a moot point…
if you’re going to offer freedom of choice, then educate them about all aspects of the choice — beyond the termination of the pregnancy.. give them every advantage by teaching them about the likelihood of infertitity & mental health issues later in life…
cjg
one more thing.. after all that, i need a vodka on the rocks, myself… bring on the alcohol excursions!
where is that bar wench?
cjg
Dave, with regards to:
I have to say that when I stated that as a guy I didn’t think that we had much ground to stand on, I was referring to the idea that guys seem to be the first ones to speak up against abortion and fight it so hard; and I do believe that men should not EVER have control over a woman’s body. Again, this is NOT AN ISSUE ABOUT THE CHILD!!!!!! It IS an issue about the woman’s body, and her right to make the choices that are best for her body (see, HER BODY). Whenever that is clear to ALL pro-lifer’s, it will become a NON-ISSUE. Men should not be able to say what women can do with their bodies. We deposit sperm, and by the looks of things to me, that does not entitle one to “1/2″ of the input in my opinion; not by a long shot; even though in this case, we are determining that for them 100%, but I digress.
I do think that as a male “pro-choicer” you should definitely listen to my perspective, because it is in regards to a different, yet related issue. I have not tried to decide whether women can have abortions, or even if they should; I strongly believe that they should have the right to make that choice themselves. I have not stated that I think that men should not be involved in the decision of whether or not to have THEIR OWN child, I have stated that men don’t have much ground to stand on when it comes to deciding on whether or not all women should have their children. If we want to get right into it, I want to know why we are moving so far away from supporting these women and “crack whores”, as you put it, since we want them to not have abortions? If we are forcing them to have babies, even the women that are raped and victims of incest, we better be there to pick up the pieces buddy; but like many things, our system wants none of that. That is another example of hypocritical bullshit, and I frankly am sick of it.
See thats the thing Judd, people can’t have it both ways. The same people who wish to ban or strictly limit a womans right to an abortion are the same folks who want to teach only abstinence in the classroom. There are plenty of ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy, but young people need to be armed with the necessary education.
I fear that South Dakota is just the start. My home state (Missouri) is ripe for this type of legislation, and the supreme court is now anti choice. It’s just a matter of time.
judd:
With regards to the biological issue, I advocate constraints, and those are currently in place. It is obvious that I am not advocating 8th month abortions or anything. What I am advocating is the right to choose abortion if a woman should choose at a certain time early in the pregnancy. I am not advocating abortion as birth control, which is why I really honestly want to comment on this:
If that is the fix for the problem… then why are the people that advocate striking down abortion the same ones that don’t want sex education and information regarding safer sex practices passed on to our nation’s kids? Sounds like another case of hypocrisy to me! You are TOTALLY right. If those things were in place, and we didn’t demonize sex in this country, then this wouldn’t even really be an issue… but we are quickly moving in the other direction, so that is actually what is the moot point, unfortunately.
So we shouldn’t listen to the men that have a different perspective than you? That seems fair…
I agree it does have to do with the woman’s body but I just cannot fathom how you can say it is not an issue about the child. How can it not be? A child’s life is being taken away? I would sure like to think that if my life was being taken away (I know few in support of this) then it would be an issue about me.
It’s just as easy for me to say that once my perspective is clear to all Pro-Choicers, it will become a non-issue but here in lies the problem. Pro-Choicers do not see a fetus as a child until the 2nd tri-mester (or whenever it is) and Pro-Lifers see a child the instant the spermy makes its way into the egg. Show me evidence that says I’m wrong, and I’ll be happy to change my position but until then, I just can’t see this as anything but an issue that pertains to a woman’s body and a child’s life.
We should have no say, but we should pay child support if we didn’t want the child and she had it anyways?
Why’s do we need to be there to pick up the pieces? The government’s job is not to babysit people it’s to protect them. Where in the Constitution does it say the government is responsible for making you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?
Katie,
Not exactly true. I’m all about outlawing abortions and I’m all about teaching real sex education.
Can’t wait to counsel little girls that they HAVE to have daddy’s (insert any male relative or acquaintance you like: uncle dick, big brother, cousin fred, joe shmo down the road’s) baby. This is a fucking great country. Love it. May the gene pool quickly spiral to the bottom of the evolutionary ladder).
Draw me a hot bath and hand me a bottle of gin and a coat hanger.
I, for one, will buy any woman in South Dakota a bus ticket outta there.
great conversation!
i would have thought this group would be free of such stereotypes… did you know that south dakota recently vetoed an abstinence-based sex education program? so much for the conspiracy of the south dakota right-wingers coupling abstinent based sex ed with making abortions illegal…
how many of you are actually familiar with the stat’s on rape, incest… those are an overwhelming minority of cases…
am i left to believe that the unborn have no rights unless they are wanted/planned in this group?
i’m not pretentious enough to have ‘the’ solution… i just think we need to be educated about all of the risks…
cjg
where is that bar wench? i think i need an rbv instead…
Sorry dpb, I shouldn’t make such broad generalizations.
Charlie are you of the belief that life begins at conception?
That’s because this bill has absolutely nothing to do with serious legislation about abortion. It’s purpose is solely to just be an outright ban on abortion, without any of the usual exceptions, so it will be challenged (if passed) in the courts and (hopefully to the conservatives) go all the way to the Supreme Court of the U.S. (SCOTUS) and thus be the catalyst to overturn or re-rule Roe v. Wade.
After Bush got his conservative justicies in (especially Roberts who was a member of an organization who’s purpose was specifically to get conservative justices on the SOCTUS to promote conservative agenda and policies); they sent out the word to introduce abortion ban legislation (especially in very conservative states where such legislation has an actual chance of passing and thus be challenged in the courts). It is NO coincidence that this legislation was in place and ready to go when Roberts and Alito were nominated. Now they are confirmed, they set the plan in motion.
This stuff is all about overturning Roe v. Wade. and just part of Bush’s plan that he specifically received from God when God talked to him and told him what to do. Is hearing voices a cause for impeachment or insanity or both? I wonder….
Jay, I just love that the only reason Bush came to “God” was through a 12 step program… I’m just saying.
Charlie - where did you get your stats from? If you are going to reference stats, back them up. Also, I’m intrigued…what are “all of the risks”?
An unwanted sexually transmitted pregnancy is alot like an unwanted sexually transmitted disease. You go to the doctor and you get rid of it.
Who wants to be the one to tell a woman who was brutally raped that she has no choice but to carry the child of her attacker? that is simply insane.
Banning abortions does not mean the end os abortion, it simply makes criminals of good and responsible doctors, and forces women into unsafe and unsanitary conditions to have the procedure.
I’m not even sure where to begin with this comment.
First, on men’s opinions when it comes to abortions. I think it’s easy for them to be able to say it’s wrong because they never have nor ever will be faced with that decision. There will never be a man who gets pregnant and has to decide what is the right course of action to take. What if men could get pregnant? Do you think that so many would be quick to say that abortion is wrong? I think a lot of them would change their tune as to whether or not life begins at conception. (And no, life does not begin at conception. It is something that I have read more on that I want to. Because it has the potential to become a child, doesn’t make it a child.)
I don’t think a man could possibly fathom what goes through a woman’s mind when she’s faced with this decision. It seems to me many think it’s just some whimsical selfish choice. As someone who has gone through this I can tell you it’s heartwrenching and difficult. There’s fear and sadness and confusion. There is pain more deep than you could even imagine. It is not something that is taken lightly.
Anyone who says different is either lying, ignorant, or just plain dead inside.
Second, imagine if you will what would happen if we were to outlaw abortion. Here in DC on one of the local stations they have every Wednesday a segmant the highlights a child or children that are up for adoption. There are hundreds of them here in this city alone. If we were to outlaw abortion, how many more homeless kids would there be? The anti-choice crowd wants you to believe that you can have these children and if you can’t care for them they will go to these wonderful, loving homes. What about these kids that have been looking for homes for years?
Not that I’m saying that abortion should be a sort of population control but it’s definitely something that you have to take into consideration. What happens then to all these unwanted kids? And and how many of these anti-choicers have or will open their homes?
When it comes to these social issues I had always been an optimist. I truly believed that our society would progress and these issues like aboriton and gay marriage would become more widely accepted. I thought they would follow the path of feminism and civil rights and soon we would eventually have an environment better than we could imagine. Now with South Dakota I’m not so sure. It seems like we’re going backwards. It saddens me yet, at the same time, empowers me to fight to push us forward.
This is the longest comment ever and I haven’t even warmed up yet.
deb,
That is quite possibly one of the most narrowminded statements I’ve ever read.
Matt,
Making murder against the law does not end it, it just makes criminals of those that commit it.
Kim,
I hate when this argument is used. It’s the trump card by which no man’s response can be taken seriously. How do you know that men are not best suited to make this decision? Women are obviously biased by the whole ordeal because it affects them. Men, on the other hand, can are better suited to make an objective and rational decision because it does not affect them. I’m not saying that’s true because I do feel that most women can make rational decisions about abortion and I feel that there are plenty of men that cannot. I just hate when my point of view is discounted simply because of my gender (the same way women got pissed when they couldn’t vote or hold public office back in yesteryear).
Yeah, that’s a fairly legit description of me.
Different argument altogether. The issue is whether or not abortion is murder. The outcome of that decision cannot be used to make the decision.
As far as the South Dakota stuff goes, when it comes down to it this is a decision for the South Dakotainas (sp?) to make. That’s the beauty of the US. If the majority of the people in one state feel one way, then they will govern themselves in that way. If the majority of people in a different state don’t feel the same, they won’t be governed by those same laws. I actually haven’t looked into what the response is like in SD but whatever it is, that’s their battle to fight. There is nothing stopping people from moving in to or out of a state to live in an area that suits their lifestyle.
DAVE:
I cannot believe you have the gall to say this:
YOU are the king of that. Seriously, you should think about that long and hard. Every one of your arguments are riddled with narrow-minded statements; I would be careful of being so accusatory with regards to that, my friend.
deb –
Charlie - where did you get your stats from?
i have to consider 1% of cases including rape & incest to be low based on…. perhaps 1% is not a low percentage?
Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI): http://www.agi-usa.org/
Exceprts from “An Overview of Abortion in the United States,” PRCH & AGI, 2003-JAN, Page 10, at: http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/abslides/
* Of the approximately 3 million unintended pregnancies each year in the U.S., 47% are terminated by abortion, 40% result in live births, and 13% end in miscarriages.
* The vast majority of are elective. Women generally decide to have an abortion because of economic or other personal reasons. Approximately ten to fifteen thousand abortions terminate pregnancies which resulted from rape or incest each year. This is on the order of 1% of all abortions.
* The abortion rate in the U.S. is lower than in the rest of the world. About 5% of the world’s population live in America and are responsible for about 3% of the abortions. The abortion rate (number of abortions per 1,000 women of childbearing age — 15 to 44) is 23 for the U.S. but 35 for the world.
Also, I’m intrigued…what are “all of the risks”?
i’m not sure i’ll can list them all, but i believe this site articulates what you ‘re looking for… psychological complications are most often swept under the rug…
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp
An unwanted sexually transmitted pregnancy is alot like an unwanted sexually transmitted disease. You go to the doctor and you get rid of it.
your conviction is the foundation of the insurmountable differences between you & i on this issue… I can’t in good faith ever feel that way… to devalue life like that….
do you reverse the stereotype? do you believe the death penalty is wrong – protecting the guilty while slaughtering the unborn/innocent?
First, on men’s opinions when it comes to abortions. I think it’s easy for them to be able to say it’s wrong because they never have nor ever will be faced with that decision. There will never be a man who gets pregnant and has to decide what is the right course of action to take. What if men could get pregnant?
now there’s a great question… what if men could be entrusted with bringing the gift of life instead of just imparting it? I bet there are plenty of breeders & non-breeders alike that would be all over that…
enough pontification for now… back to the salt mine…
cjg
ps ‘who do you have to screw around here to get a vodka?’ - buddy young in ‘mr. saturday night’
Dave:
That is quite possibly a compliment coming from you.
Duane/Deb,
Takes one to know one, right?
But honestly, I’ve tried to be as open minded as possible in this discussion as well as the one on the other abortion post. In both, I’ve asked for proof or reasoning that a fetus is not a child thereby confirming that abortion is not murder. That is the sole basis for my argument after all. I’ve also verbalized that I recognize all the other nasty stuff that goes along with abortion and why Pro-Choicers feel the way they do. I respect those issues but I just can’t get over that one is it/isn’t it murder part. If that makes me narrowminded, then so be it, but I feel I’ve been more open minded than other Pro-Lifers.
And Duane, if it is the statements on my site you’re referring to as being narrowminded, then yeah… but that’s unrelated to this argument. With that said, if my arguments are so narrowminded, then wouldn’t that make my statement to Deb even more poignant?
Dave:
Nope, it’s all related to what you have put here. And yes, you are very very narrow minded. You can’t see past abortion; and like I have said 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times… I AM NOT PRO-ABORTION, I AM PRO-CHOICE. THEY ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS!
Dave:
My intent was SHOCK VALUE.
* Shock value is when someone does something to provoke a reaction out of someone else…the more someone gets upset about it, the more the Shock Valuist wins.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_value
Kind of different from narrow minded, but I appreciate you responding to me from your own corner of the world.
We’ve had this discussion before (see Duane’s previous pro-choice is not pro-abortion thread). I have nothing left to say to you on this.
Duane,
I’m confused. I’ve never said you or anyone else were pro-abortion. I know Pro-Choice does not equal Pro-Abortion, but the issue at hand is abortion. Whether it should be legal or not… that’s all I’m talking about.
I’m really shocked that I’ve come off in this (and the other) discussion narrow minded. I’ve been open to all view points but no one has given me anything to change my own. How is that narrowminded? Because I don’t agree with you?
Later Deb.
You are confused because what I am talking about is pro-choice; by making abortion illegal, you take away the choice. PERIOD. There is no room for arguing that. It isn’t approving of abortion, it isn’t consenting that everyone should get an abortion, hell, it isn’t even suggesting that abortion is cool and okay, it is just giving women the right to make that choice for themselves.
We are obviously talking about two different issues, so I guess that things are pretty cleared up for me on that now. Hope you are no longer confused. I, for one, have never said anything about my thoughts on abortion; only my thoughts on the choice. Let’s just leave it with that, shall we?
I have a bumper sticker that says Pro Child Pro Choice I hate the idea of children that are unwanted being brought into this world…considering all the abuse going on. The idea of the choice being gone scares the crap out of me…
Duane, since you’re asking me to leave it alone, I will.
dpb,
Hating that argument doesn’t make it any less true. And comparing men deciding what a woman can do with her own body and women being allowed to vote is a huge stretch. It’s more like me saying that men should have their penises chopped off. I don’t have a penis and never will have one so the decision’s not going to affect me.
And no, abortion is not murder. Like I said before life does not begin a conception. An embryo and a child are two totally different things. An embryo is not a living breathing being that can survive on it’s own outside the womb.
Like I said before just because it has the potential to become a child, doesn’t make it a child and i think that’s where a lot of people get confused.
Kim, I would reply, but I have been censored due to narrowmindedness.
Tiniest violin…